Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Michelle on March 23, 2015, 6:34 pm 201.133.154.4
Given the discussion about sewage outflow and water safety in LaMan, can anyone recommend nearby beaches within an hour's drive to swim at that are more likely (as far as anyone knows) to be cleaner and safer to swim in? Is it better to go south, i.e., to Melaque, or north somewhere? We have visitors this week and would like to take them to the best/safest spots. Gracias!
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Posted by Chile on March 23, 2015, 6:57 pm, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.148.212.78------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Dean & Judy on March 23, 2015, 7:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 67.169.203.5
Blue Bay....past the hotel to the end of the road where the confluence of river and ocean meet. very flat calm water. very nice private, uncrowded and quiet...we thoroughly enjoyed our day trip there. there is also a palapa restaurant (very poqueno) that serves great food and very cold beer! enjoy. you will have to stop at the guard shack at the entrance. let them know you are going to swim at the end of the road. u will get a pass for the window and they will keep your license... highway 200 North to the Blue Bay Hotel entrance (on the left of highway!) | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by sparks on March 24, 2015, 8:06 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.216.136.10
That beach/restaurant is called La Vena .... the guards know that name | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Larry F on March 23, 2015, 7:09 pm, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.203.235
The sewage outflow in La Manzanilla was a result of high levels of storm water runoff. With dry weather upon us, the surface water overflow has ceased. The local beaches test negative for fecal coliform and Ecoli. While that is not to say that there could be pathogens present that are normally there, the safety of the beach waters has likely returned to it's normal state. During Semana Santas, there will be hundreds of people swimming in the local waters. It is really a personal decision as to whether or not you will swim in the local water. Not sure why Melaque would be better, but the remote beaches north of here are a good option. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by DanH on March 23, 2015, 8:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 173.255.183.76
On Saturday our last day we walked to Palapa Joe's for early dinner and on the way, there was a pool of sewage around the manhole at the north end of Maria Ascension. This is the one from which sewage has been running into the lagoon and then onto the beach for at least a week. There is a strong odor of raw but fresh sewage there as well on Saturday. This sewer system appears to have serious problems with both surface water infiltration when it rains and also ground water infiltration. I took the time to observe both while I was there by going out at the tail end of the rains and then twice daily afterwards. When the surface storm water was still running off, the effluent from that manhole was murky. By the end of the week it was relatively clear and somewhat dilute suggesting the main source of infiltration was ground water. By the time we walked back on Saturday, there was an active stream of sewage running into the lagoon and from there directly on to the beach. Again. Four days after it stopped raining. I have no idea what is going on there now. We left on Sunday. I've tried to educate some here as to the seriousness of this matter and I detailed a stop gap solution that would keep this stuff off the beach at least short term so that the community could get through the Semana Santa weekend. When this topic was first raised on this board I offered to spend some of my vacation time reviewing the system, sewers, pumping station and treatment plant, and getting some preliminary indications as to where the most serious issues are. I got no response. Next thing, I see untrained people using a "quickie" test kit incorrectly and drawing all the wrong conclusions from it. When I pointed out the error of this and cited references, ll I got was a bunch of BS and abuse from people who should understand just what a public health concern this is to both residents and visitors. Clearly they did not want to have their balloons punctured and got quite angry with me for doing so. There's a serious problem here and the people who could do something about it seem more interested in attacking anyone who points out the obvious health risks of sewage running over the ground and onto a very nearby beach. This is sewage 101. You don't need to use a test kit to figure out that if a fluid is running out of a sewer system manhole it is at least in part sewage. Sewage is found in sewer systems and if stuff runs out of their manholes, it is sewage. Experienced eyes and noses do not fool one but a test kit measuring an indicator organism that has a shorter life in salt water than many of the pathogens of concern can definitely mislead particularly in the hands of those who don't really understand the technology and science of waste water collection and treatment. Sewage is not drinking water and it is not fine wine and it can and often does have organisms in it that are of far greater concern than e-coli. On another thread I posted links to credible sources and quotes explaining this. Of course I don't know what I'm talking about since I'm just a retired professional sanitary engineer with advanced training, 30 years of experience and international credentials who dealt with far more serious stuff during my professional life. As to the initial question my advice to you right now is to go at least a quarter mile up the beach, north, from the lagoon. You should be OK there unless the crowd coming for the holiday really increases the rate of sewer system overflow. In which case you better stay out of the water entirely or go a lot further north. Like Tenacatita as suggested above. And then I wouldn't hesitate to let the local business people know you will go elsewhere in the future unless they get serious about putting an end to this problem. This will probably get me banned but it needs to be said. It seems there is far more interest at least among some on this board to pretending the obvious isn't obvious and attacking anyone who points out the emperor has no clothes. I actually received private emails from some long term residents warning me this would happen and it appears they were correct. This really saddens and discourages me and we've decided as well not to return until we see concrete evidence that this situation has been clearly understood, taken seriously and remedied. DanH, MSEHE, Professional Sanitary Engineer
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Posted by Daniel H on March 23, 2015, 8:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" Edited by board administrator March 23, 2015, 8:15 pm
bla, bla, bla, too long, didn't read. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Hannah on March 23, 2015, 8:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 71.94.34.230
I know this isn't facebook so there isn't a "like" button. If there was I would "LIKE" your post Daniel!
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Posted by Larry F on March 23, 2015, 8:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.203.235
Open letter to Dan. I'm not sure why you are so concerned about water quality in La Manzanilla. To my knowledge there has been no outbreaks of any serious illness here that can be directly related to either surface or ocean water. Granted, there is, for a short period of time after a storm, some sewage runoff into the laggon and ocean. There is absolutely no evidence that the beach waters are contaminated. That is not to deny that there is a problem - just to say we need to put it into perspective. If the best you can do in terms of offering advice as an experienced sanitation engineer is to quote some horrific stories from a surfboarding website, that may or may not have ant relation to our situation in La Manzanilla, then you have likely discredited yourself. Nobody here denies that the liquid flowing from the manholes is sewage. The question is - how serious a problem is it and how do you fix it. This community is, not withstanding your advice, well on it's way to dealing with this, We in this community well understand that the current testing does not disprove the existence of harmful organisms in the beach water. The test kit used here is, as previously stated, a reliable and tevhnologically advanced method to determine data,in spite of your claims. The work done in this regard has just started, and the answers will be found. Dan, nobody here is banning you from coming to La Manzanilla. Any attacks you may perceive are against the manner in which you state your views, not you personally. According to you, nobody here knows anything and you know everything. I think that you underestimate the strength of the community here.
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Posted by Daniel H on March 23, 2015, 8:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.217.49
Perfectly said Larry, thank you. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by jean on March 23, 2015, 8:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.226.68
last walk...see ya bye!! We are tired of listening to you.. I am not the only one. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by jean on March 23, 2015, 8:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.226.68
Holy shit!!! My post was for the out of towner.. DanH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtfdik | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Dr. Todd D. Stong on March 24, 2015, 8:54 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?"
Wastewater sewers in many cities are not accompanied by a 2nd set of sewers for storm water. Thus, the unusual heavy rain overwhelms the wastewater system. The basic issues are money, priorities, and lack of seeking engineering advice. Further, given that ocean beach areas are often quite flat, there is little slope (perhaps less than 2’ in 1000’) for the sewer pipes and thus they may run quite slow. In such cases a government may for cost reasons run an 8” sewer instead of a much more expensive 24” sewer which, having less friction to flow, can perform better in flat areas. Wastewater systems cost 3 or more times water systems, thus governments with limited budgets may cut corners or skip them all together. Mexico with 70% of wastewater not treated is very much inclined to pipe such waste to the ocean, a river or down an arroyo. In Mexico, one while sure to gain public support/votes with a promise of better/more water will by contrast see much, much less enthusiasm for the big costs of sewers (1000-3000 pesos/person or more). Lastly, few municipios have graduate engineers to plan proper pipe size sections to assure adequate flow. Thus, they often depend on a construction contractors or pipe salesmen to define a pipe size. This challenge can exist in most any town with less than 20,000 people in Mexico. Mexico has very good engineers but they are not called on when a new municipal president is tasked with filling offices with those that supported his election. In turn Mexico has IMTA, an excellent government technical institution for water issues. Sadly, government officials very often do not follow IMTA’s recommendations. In summary, funding and the political payback system are key elements in inadequate infrastructure. Why the ocean? “The solution to pollution is dilution.” What about the health related to the hazard of sewage in the streets? “THEY” know it will run off in days and be forgotten. The UV rays of the sun will kill much of the hazardous bacteria in days . Come June the pure rains will carry away the remnants of today. If the government wished, I of course could come, study the existing system over a few days, and make recommendations. My time is always free.
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Posted by Bohdan on March 23, 2015, 8:12 pm, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.216.136.10
Go to the beach near the ruined hotel at Boca. It is safe, clean and with good access. The local resident charges 50 p. per vehicle, regardless of number of people. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Mark S on March 24, 2015, 7:22 am, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.239.111
At risk of sounding like the LM Chamber of Commerce, while I have recreated at all of the alternative beaches suggested in this thread (as well as others), LM is the best beach around for swimming due to its being protected from heavy surf. I swim year round in LM and just use common sense when the croc laguna is open. If it smells bad, I don't swim. No smell, I swim even though the ocean is cloudy. Other than the third eye developing in my forehead, so far, so good. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by patti on March 24, 2015, 7:54 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.148.173.25
to dan h. it's simple dan,,, go somewhere else,,, we like it here..your posts were the most negative opinions i have ever seen on this message board. if you find it so distasteful,, just dont come back,, | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Dorinda on March 24, 2015, 9:48 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.148.172.241
I simply don't understand the vitriol and anger aimed at this professional person who has given so much of his vacation time to observing and understanding this problem. Here we have a choice to swim or not swim. But to make an uninformed choice is perplexing.
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Posted by Ross on March 24, 2015, 9:51 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.148.170.94
Sorry, but "we" works for me as far as liking it here, but don't include me about the "just don't come back" part. This is an open board and Dan's opinions are valid whether you like them or not. Maybe, don't read them if you feel so strong and it upsets you. I would like to see changes for the better and don't mind hearing about what someone, who has experience, knows about these things, and cares about La Manz, has to say. I encourage ANYONE to write in to the message board about this topic. Information is good. Please keep an open mind! | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Moderator on March 24, 2015, 10:03 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.217.49
Hi Ross, This is a La Manzanilla message board for the people of La Manzanilla, if we were to open it up to anyone people who did not live here would be having discussions between themselves. That guideline is quite flexible as we do allow others not from La Manzanilla to post here, but please don't say anyone can post here. It took a long time for me (the moderator)to establish a place where we can communicate mostly amongst ourselves. There are other message boards for other areas and for people from other areas to express themselves. Mod D | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Ross on March 24, 2015, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.148.170.94
OK Daniel, you are technically right about my choice of words. I will have to be more careful in the future if I write in again. Personally, if someone cares enough to write in and has a good solution to our problem, I would be happy to read it. I am not an engineer but I did watch the pipes go in at the time of construction. I made the following observations- The brick manholes are being used to join the lengths of sewer pipe one to the other. Plastic couplings were not used. Next obervation- the pipe running from the pump station to the treatment pond is a 4" pipe. I asked the contractor at the time if this small pipe would be sufficient for the whole pueblo. He said yes, that the pump was very strong. Next observation- one day I heard rushing water behind the pump station and asked the people next door what it was. They said that they were pumping the sewage water to the lagoon because the system was overloaded. I have edited myself to avoid any backlash. As I mentioned these were observations only. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Daniel H on March 24, 2015, 12:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" Edited by board administrator March 24, 2015, 1:10 pm
Hi Ross, Daniel H (me) and the moderator are technically both me but when I put the moderator hat on I am much more structured and much less of a opinionated jerk. Interesting observations, especially the Lagoon Sewer pump overflow one. Here are some photos of when they were putting in the sewer http://www.lamanzanilla.info/e_la_manzanilla_road_3.html In the photos they are mainly burning a hole in the sewer pipe to make a place to connect to a home or store. They sealed it quite well with a flange, you can see one in this photo under the water pipe to Tamarindo. http://www.lamanzanilla.info/la_manzanilla_road/08-10-09_road_64b_s.jpg In town there are places which get water on the floor because the water table gets so high during the rains. The sewer would have to be very water proof to resist that amount of water. Personally, I am going to pretty much stay out of the sewer pipe discussion and let others do their thing. I am sure they will have to work very closely with the people of La Manzanilla on this project and I wish them the best. I am more interested in water quality data. | ------------------------just a bit more
Posted by Daniel H on March 25, 2015, 3:57 am, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.217.49
Given the logistics and water table issues I would recommend no sewer at all, switch the whole town over to composting toilets, but it would take a charismatic visionary or two to pull that one off, some true dreamer's. | ------------------------Re: just a bit more
Posted by Ross on March 25, 2015, 8:18 am, in reply to "just a bit more" 187.148.170.94
Maybe a communal pit would work and as a bonus you get to know your neighbors better. But what about the grey water? However, I look back and remeber less problems when everyone was on septic systems. I know, I know we can't go back now. | ------------------------Re: just a bit more
Posted by Daniel H on March 25, 2015, 10:18 am, in reply to "Re: just a bit more" 189.164.217.49
Are you sure we can't go back? There are still a lot of homes and business that are not hooked up to the sewer. Back in those day's I seldom saw anyone getting their septic tank pumped, many didn't even know where the tank was it was so little problem. The only ones I know of that were having problems getting the leach line to work were those on downtown main street and that was mostly during the rainy season when the water table was high. I was surprised when the ecoli count was so high on the manhole test results recently, I guess it doesn't take very many hookups to create a problem. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Carol from Cuastecomates on March 24, 2015, 10:08 am, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 187.204.74.245
Fabulous new road construction is almost done. Beach is exquisite and calm. Please come. Our restaurants were really hammered as a result of the construction! The road is now set up for wheel chair access and special guide things for the blind. The project is called Playa Incluye and will host Special Olympic events. The funding came via DIF which is headed by the Governor's wife. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Andrew Morrow on March 24, 2015, 10:44 am, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 189.164.201.10
Since the discussion of issues wanders from thread to thread I am reposting some of the information posted elsewhere and adding some new information. The device used in water testing is a product of Bluewater Biosciences. From their web site this is how they deccribe the product: "The Coliplate™ kit is a convenient test for quantitative measure of total coliforms and E. Coli bacteria. The test is designed to meet regulatory guidelines for surface water, recreational water, processing water and wastewater. The Coliplate™ test quantifies density of target bacteria, coliforms and E. Coli, ranging from 5 to 5,000 colony forming-units (cfu) per 100 mL sample, without dilutions. Coliform positive test results in a distinctive blue colour, which enables analysis of brownish, turbid or rust-filled water.". Like other water tests the unit is then allowed to sit for 24 to 30 hours in an incubator which allows the coliform and e-coli in the cells to grow. Blue colour in a cell indicates coliform.The number of wells that turned blue and were fluorescent under the UV light is the positive reaction for E. Coli. We are looking to also acquire a test from IIDEX who provide testing material for salt water enterococci (evidently there are 3 strains we need to be concerned with). You will note that the bubbling water on either end the street had the highest readings in our tests posted elsewhere. The crocodile lagoon only a few feet away had lower readings for e-coli than the water coming from the manhole cover adjacent to the crocodillo viewing statation. I saw the great flood of water headed to the area that we did those two tests by the crocodile viewing point on the day after the rain stopped. It would not be hard to speculate that all the contaminants in that water eventually ended in the crocodile lagoon or the ocean. Now that we have the test equipment in the community it will no longer be necessary to speculate on the origins of these two bacterial contaminants. I read the material on the EPA site and see that the agency considers enterococci a better single screening indicator for health issues in water, particularly salt water. That said the basic issue is still how long after a release of any of the three bacteria would the test be a reliable predictor of a problem? The enterococci is favoured because of its ability to survive longer in salt water. This is why we are interested in acquiring an appropriate test for enterococci. Regarding the local sources of contamination, it is clear that there are engineering problems with the sewer pipes as they run through town. Since the bubbling occurs only after heavy rain one could speculate that groundwater might be entering the system at a higher point, or perhaps the rudimentary sealing of the covers allows large input of surface water in these rains. Maybe it is a combination of both.To get a better handle on this problem a local committee of the Terrealegre Group is having engineers look at the system this summer. The health of the crocodile laguna is also a concern of this group and the local residents. Some people speculate that the breach of the road barrier in rainy season is problematic for salt water recreational use. Already we have started to collect sample readings to determine the health of the laguna and what would be released when the barrier is breached. I hope this summary will help you understand what we are trying to accomplish with testing and what we have learned so far. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by mark on March 24, 2015, 3:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 64.134.27.41
Thank you Dan H., Larry F., Valerie, and Andrew Morrow for your earnest attempts to keep us all focused on the science which ultimately governs the water quality issues in La Manzanilla. Sanitation is the cornerstone of civilization. It strikes me that to scorn well qualified input from seasoned and professionals is simply foolish. How often in life do we enjoy, gratis, the good council of scientists, engineers, doctors and plumbers? I'm wondering how long before Tierralegre group publishes the results of their recent tests... It seems to me that if the results were resoundingly healthful that publishing such, quickly, would provide the community with peace of mind regarding water conditions for recreation and put to rest this contentious "dialogue". A clean bill of health for local water conditions would be a great source of pride for the townspeople, and a boon to tourism and business. Science does not play favorites. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by shane on March 24, 2015, 3:38 pm, in reply to "Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 74.192.131.201
Follow the beach to where it curves towards Boca . In the center of the curve there is nice sand flats / not many if any , sting rays or pebbles . If you head further out there are great body surfing waves that break evenly and sling shot you back to shore . Again no rocks . Enjoy ! A word to your guests , be sure to have a squeezy bulb to rinse ears with alcohol / pure water mix when your ready to call it a day and head back . It really cuts down on the chance of an ear infection and that happens anywhere in the ocean but even more so around close to town . | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by brad on March 25, 2015, 10:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 69.196.75.252
Necessary improvements to the stressed infrastructure in the village will cost significant amounts of money. Obvious question is who will pay? We all love holidaying and spending extended periods of time in the south but get a little squeamish when it comes to the money part. Pretty obvious that a ongoing source of funding is needed to provide the cash to make necessary improvements to the infrastructure and to provide training and ongoing monitoring of the water quality about the village. Recently I spent over $2000 for the privilege of staying on the beach with my family for few weeks. I wish that a % of my rent could have gone directly to the cause. Seems like the word tax scares people but not sure how else enough funding will be generated to improve things like the infrastructure, ambulance and school services for the local kids. If you ( I ) choose to live or to holiday in La Man helping to pay for these essentials should not be on a voluntary basis. While I have been visiting and holidaying in Mexico since 1982 I am by far an expert in how local governments work, how they collect fees or taxes from businesses and land owners and how they interact with state governments. However, I do know that water - sewer, property and various other taxes are a fraction of what we pay at home. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Michelle on March 25, 2015, 11:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 201.133.154.4
Thanks for all the swimming recommendations! We will head up toward Boca and visit Tenacatita as well (and will exercise caution and common sense around here). I hope the discussion about infrastructural problems in LaMan leads to some next steps toward solving them. | ------------------------Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?
Posted by Tim Edwards on March 26, 2015, 3:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Safer beaches to swim nearby?" 198.0.232.54
While these other areas offer different wave action and views........ the beach at LM is a safe place to swim. The recent water test showed 0 sewage pollution | ------------------------
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