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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Rick on September 28, 2020, 3:05 am

A continuation of this thread

"IMO most of what is being done is security theater to make people feel safer about being in a tube with 100 other non tested people where you can't social distance, breathing the same air for a couple of hours.

.... "breathing the same air for a couple of hours??" (with 100+ other people) Have you done any research on the ventilation systems on modern jet aircraft?? They are not the same as they were 20 years ago. Any recirculated air is HEPA filtered and UV-C treated, and outside air is constantly blown in from the engines.... exchanged in as little as every 3 minutes. Instead of posting sometimes frightening false information on social media...which unfortunately far too many folks accept as gospel, do the research first..

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/2020/08/how-clean-is-the-air-on-your-airplane-coronavirus-cvd/

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Daniel H on September 28, 2020, 3:07 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

Good recent article, National Geographic, who would have guessed.

I did a full day of searching and reading after I did that post
and intended to start a new thread and post it. I have been lax
doing that and knowing me if I don't do it straight away there is
a very good chance it won't get done as the memory of the information
grows stale and new interest occupy my time. Looks like now I will
have to do the post, so thanks for the prodding.

TLDR - My opinion changed some in the direction of flying. I wonder
if there is a way to tell which planes have the good filters and
if I was really concerned I would probably pay for the seat next to
me as the odds of transmission are 50% less when that seat is empty
(see last couple of links).

I got some different information on the last 3 links below,
the Business Insider
and the MIT study. Delta CEO Ed Bastian said ... "We track the health of our people".
I would like to see that data,
its not on the Internet (that I found)

I remain very wary of corporations and information.
Normally I read about corporations doing whatever it takes to
keep the stock value up and people be damned.

I started searching information on flight attendants looking
for infection rates, never did get any real data, not even from the
Flight attendants association. Here are some of the links I read.

Delta Air Lines Inc. CEO Ed Bastian says 500 employees have contracted Covid-19 - Atlanta Business Chronicle

Flight Attendants and Pilots Ask, ‘Is It OK to Keep Working?’ - The New York Times

how many flight attendants and pilots have the antibodies or have been taken off the job for testing positive at DuckDuckGo

If You Have To Travel Right Now, Here's How To Stay As Safe As Possible | TravelAlerts

As covid-19 cases mount, flight attendants grow increasingly fearful of flying - The Washington Post

'We’re a part of the spread': flight attendant's guilt over Covid-19 | Coronavirus outbreak | The Guardian

Worried about crowded planes? Know where your airline stands - Baltimore Sun

Headlines Shout of Covid-19 Exposure on Flights, but Look Deeper—It's Worse | Frommer's

Covid-19 Can Spread On Long Airline Flights, Per Two New Studies

Can you get coronavirus on flights? You may be exposed to COVID-19, CDC says - Deseret News

USA Recent flights with potential COVID-19 exposure at DuckDuckGo

Transcom Aims to Reduce COVID-19 Exposure on Aircraft > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

If air travel is so safe why are they doing this study?

New Study Analyzes The Risk Of Catching Covid-19 While Flying

Single plane passenger infected 15 people with Covid-19, CDC says

How risky is flying during Covid-19 pandemic? Studies show methods used by airlines to prevent spread may not work | MEAWW

Flight attendants to rally outside Sen. Stabenow's Detroit office to demand immediate COVID-19 relief

COVID-19 can spread on lengthy airline flights, two new studies find

Airline workers have lower rates of COVID-19 than general population - Business Insider

I actually laughed out loud when I read this title.

Air Travel - Chapter 8 - 2020 Yellow Book | Travelers' Health | CDC

Filling middle seats on flights doubles coronavirus risk: MIT study - Business Insider

Covid-19 Risk Among Airline Passengers: Should the Middle Seat Stay Empty? | medRxiv

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Daniel H on September 28, 2020, 3:08 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

I am trying to find a list of which planes have HEPA filters, no luck
using several different queries

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=which+planes+are+HEPA-equipped&t=h_&ia=web

Also, it the type of plane usually listed when you book a flight?

I haven't flown in over 20 years so not used to looking up flights.

Any help appreciated.

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Beccistarr on September 28, 2020, 3:15 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

Not sure what the point is of listing all these links...I’ve subscribed to national geo for 40 years yet couldn’t get access to the info. True for most of your links. I’m flying to Mexico come hell or high water, have flown around the world more than once...now I’m taking advice from someone who hasn’t flown in 20 years. Wacky

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Daniel H on September 28, 2020, 3:59 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

I am not trying to tell anyone what to do, its just information.

There are airlines that will let you re book no charge (some
conditions do apply) if a flight gets too full.

There are some airlines that will let you change seats once
you have left the gate so you can better social distance.

There are some airlines who won't book the middle seat and are
committed to a certain percent of capacity.

Soon there will be testing at the gate, and test that you can
do yourself,

For some this information is meaningless, for others who have pre
existing conditions or are visiting someone with conditions
and need to take every precaution possible this information is valuable.

Soon information like HPFA filters, type of aircraft, center
seat open will be common place and easily available. Things are changing
rapidly.

There are other precautions one can do, some of the flight attendants
change clothes and take a shower before going home to their families.

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Rick on September 28, 2020, 7:22 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

RE: A/C ventilation Systems...Each aircraft type is designed from the ground up. Cabins are normally designed to be pressurized to 7000'(at altitude) so the entire pressurization/ventilation of the cabin is an integral part of the complex design of the aircraft; nothing is an add-on or retrofit to be implemented by any airline company, doing something like that would destroy the certification of the A/C. Cabin HEPA filters are designed to be removed and replaced as part of any aircraft's ongoing maintenance schedule. Some newer designs are now including UV-C sterilization where the UV-C effectively fry's the DNA and RNA of all bacterial and viral pathogens. UV-C is simple and is also commonly used in water treatment systems, both commercial and residential. Either way all commercial aircraft type have a sophisticated pressurization/ventilation system that is built in to the original design.

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Dataism

Posted by Daniel H on September 29, 2020, 4:23 pm, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"
Edited by board administrator September 29, 2020, 9:39 pm

Traveling consist of various virus vectors, e.g. getting to the
airport, the airport, the plane, possible hotel (and the transportation
to and from), final airport and transportation to destination.

Each of these vectors have an associated risk e.g. taxi or bus
transportation to the airport would entail more risk than
private transportation as it is exposed to more people. Certain
airports are more stringent about cleaning procedures,
flying from a location with a high number of cases, type
of aircraft and policy of the airline (e.g. center seat empty)
the rating of the hotel (if applicable), these (and a lot more)
would all effect the overall risk factor.

If traveling presents a significant risk to us or our loved ones
we can collect as much information as possible to assist us in
making that decision, to calculate the probabilities.

This collecting and analyzing data approach to decision making
is called Dataism.

As mentioned in the Wikipedia Yuval Noah Harari. He starts at the
6 min mark and gets past the history at the 25 min mark. Trigger warning.

A neural network is a collection of data bases, AI is a collection of
neural networks that are searched via an algorithm to get the
answer to a question that could be general or very specific.
The more data the better.

There are apps and websites where you can put in your (or others)
preconditions, age etc and get statistics of surviving COVID.

I found a place where flight attendants communicate, not
just about COVID but the job in general and found the conversations
interesting.

TLDR, things have changed since the days of no mask allowed
(at first flight attendants were not allowed to wear a mask)
and most seem to be ok to semi ok with flying.

Keep in mind that there is a fear of losing ones job if they
are connected with a negative post, so they won't be posting
anything negative on their facebook page but on a place like
Reddit which is anonymous (to a point). You can search this sub
(check search this sub) and then sort by activity, week, month etc.
My search term was COVID.

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/

Of interest was this post about hair loss and wondering if
it had anything to do with the new cleaning proceedures.
First time I have thought about that and look forward to
the future when we know the risk (if any) associated
wth all the cleaning soultions we are using, not only on airplanes
but in daily life.

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/hpmfss/hair_loss/

and

"Speaking of the cleaners though, I definitely go up to the
concourse when they fog our aircraft and give it some time
to settle regardless of how tight our turn is".

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/hpmfss/hair_loss/fxttcbp/

Onward

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Re: Dataism

Posted by Cruz on September 30, 2020, 10:07 am, in reply to "Dataism"

Hola, Daniel. I love your 'data ism'. It means we don't have to experience each topic before being able to discuss or provide pertinent information on that topic because data and experiential reports exist. And you presented this point nicely and respectfully.

Viva la informacion which does need to be teased out and evaluated and viva ones discernment capability. Cruz

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Re: Dataism

Posted by Brad on October 5, 2020, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Dataism"

Thanks so much for all the great discussion and information within this thread. Along with my kids and grandkids ( and I know many others ) we cancelled our trip to La manzanilla last March. After visiting Mexico many times over the past 35 years this was a difficult decision but undoubtably the right one ... looking ahead .. In no way will I jeopardize my families' health or the health of any other person around me, if there are steps we can take to mitigate that risk. Up to date data and clear objective information will help with our decision about when to travel again.. thanks again

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15 minute COVID test

Posted by Daniel H on October 5, 2020, 4:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Dataism"
Edited by board administrator October 5, 2020, 4:08 pm

What would boost confidence the most would be If everyone on a
flight took a test at the airport before getting on the plane. (IMO no mail
in test allowed, it is mandatory for all and the cost is included in the
ticket price)

This is the next big step and its already happening on some flights.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffwhitmore/2020/09/29/united-airlines-has-new-covid-19-test-options/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=15+minute+swab+test+for+coronavirus&t=h_&df=w&ia=web

What would boost confidence even more if everyone had to take
that test before entering the airport, but that is ......

More than tracking, more than vaccine the instant test seems to
be a good way forward.

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Re: 15 minute COVID test

Posted by Beccistarr on October 5, 2020, 5:41 pm, in reply to "15 minute COVID test"

In general most airlines in the US are offering tests to anyone who wants to pay $90 and thinks the 15 minutes result is reliable

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Re: 15 minute COVID test

Posted by Daniel H on October 5, 2020, 6:26 pm, in reply to "Re: 15 minute COVID test"
Edited by board administrator October 5, 2020, 6:44 pm

My search was sorted by last week and most all of the links spoke
of it being available the near future, I haven't found much on
the reliability, I'm kinda lazy today.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=15+minute+swab+test+for+coronavirus&t=h_&df=w&ia=web

Best way to get the cost down is to make it mandatory and that
the airlines have to include it in the price.

Lots of dreamy talk in some of the links

"You can also use it so that folks who are also more vulnerable will
be able to enjoy life to the fullest. For example, if you have a
senior who would like to have younger family members come, these will
be available. This is a 15 minute deal. You can do that. It really
lets people do more," DeSantis said.

Tuesday that "testing is the key to getting back to travel."

"If it's successful, and we think it will be, we'll continue
and we'll build it and it will grow even more," he said.

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/tampa-airport-says-it-will-test-passengers-for-coronavirus

I'm imagining a day soon where we will be able to get on a plane
the same way we did last February before this drama started.
The way you know flying is really safe is when you don't need to
wear a mask.

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update on the 15 minute COVID test

Posted by Daniel H on October 7, 2020, 9:30 pm, in reply to "Re: 15 minute COVID test"

I felt obligated to update this post/topic.

TLDR - the Abbot quick test was given FDA emergency approval under
the conditions that those being tested were showing symptoms. The
reliability of the test for those not showing symptoms is not
known....yet.

The White House Bet on Abbott's Rapid Tests. It Didn't Work Out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/health/covid-white-house-testing.html

Grasping for straws and getting straws. Sad.

Here is one of several links I found a couple days ago worth a read IMO.

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/08/27/thoughts-on-a-new-coronavirus-test-and-on-testing

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Alaska airlines cleaning and disfencting procedures

Posted by Deano on September 28, 2020, 7:25 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

Great point Becci...

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/advisories/coronavirus

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Re: Alaska airlines cleaning and disfencting procedures

Posted by Beccistarr on September 29, 2020, 7:36 pm, in reply to "Alaska airlines cleaning and disfencting procedures"

Thanks Deano...wish I was flying Alaska

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Dennis F on September 29, 2020, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

Ah yes, I'm remembering the surprise attack years ago flying into some central American city when just before landing the stewards walked up and down the isle spraying all of us passengers with either disinfectant or pesticide or what. It was never explained, nor were we advised before flying that it would happen.

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Re: US equivalent of what Canada has

Posted by Kathleen on October 2, 2020, 4:14 pm, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

We were sprayed on our first trip to Mexico in 1973. We found out it was DDT!!! Yikes!!

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How are flight attendants protecting themselves during the pandemic??

Posted by Daniel H on October 3, 2020, 7:55 am, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"
Edited by board administrator October 3, 2020, 9:12 am

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/itl7jq/how_are_flight_attendants_protecting_themselves/

"Also, in our country, all passengers are required to wear masks
and face shield whenever they are in transit. Also, most destinations
we have require a negative swab test so it’s pretty safe IMO."

They don't give the airline but I am pretty sure they are are Filipino

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/itl7jq/how_are_flight_attendants_protecting_themselves/g5f85bs/

Some interesting reading, one example

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/itl7jq/how_are_flight_attendants_protecting_themselves/g5fmt7l/

Here are a few other random links

I am a flight attendant for a major US carrier. : AMA

https://old.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/inwszm/i_am_a_flight_attendant_for_a_major_us_carrier/

Why do we need 3 flight attendants to hand out water

https://old.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/iz0bx4/why_do_we_need_3_flight_attendants_to_hand_out/

Some Flight Attendants Don't Care About Spreading Covid

https://old.reddit.com/r/flightattendants/comments/imam45/some_flight_attendants_dont_care_about_spreading/

Nearly all Covid patients still suffer from symptoms six months after

https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/j4ciu8/nearly_all_covid_patients_still_suffer_from/

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Our comfort level in our choices...

Posted by Deano... on October 4, 2020, 2:09 pm, in reply to "Re: US equivalent of what Canada has"

Staying healthy is of the utmost importance. Some of us just need to get out more, act responsibly, safely, in what ever choices we make...
We can only control our own actions, not those of others.

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