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Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by david dagoli on November 10, 2020, 11:56 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-transmission-flights-extremely-rare-1.5797065

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 3:14 am, in reply to "Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"
Edited by board administrator November 11, 2020, 4:21 am

Thanks David.

I did a little bit of work on this (I enjoyed it).

TLDR - yeah, whatever.

"Tam said these ventilation systems — together with mandatory mask
policies and instructions to passengers to keep to their seats and
face forward while in flight"

Hmmm, pretty strict requirements.

"The report was funded by the Aviation Public Health Initiative,
an industry-backed group. Marcus said that the industry’s involvement
with the study did not influence the team’s findings".

-------
Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

"With proper precautions, flying can be safer than grocery shopping"

That is a classic click bait title, I don't think it was necessary
and compromised the value of the report.

They did the study for the Aviation Public Health Initiative
a PDF downloaded to your computer when you click on the link.

My skepticism of the integrity of the report was reduced when
I watched the videos on this page.

https://npli.sph.harvard.edu/crisis-research/aviation-public-health-initiative-aphi/

The roots of my skepticism come in part from things like the 2008 financial crisis
and academics like Fredrich Miskin. He wrote an article stating that Iceland
was stable only day's before it collapsed. He was paid $124,000 to write that.
good summary

----------------

Study conducted by the U.S. Department of Defense

The study, which was released without peer review, did
not take into account other ways that people could catch the virus
on aircraft -- including from others coughing or breathing directly
on them, from surfaces or from confined spaces such as restrooms.

----

CDC - Travel during the COVID-19 Pandemic

"Travel increases your chance of getting and spreading COVID-19.
Staying home is the best way to protect yourself and others from COVID-19."

"Is COVID-19 spreading at your destination?
The more cases at your destination, the more likely you are to
get infected during travel and spread the virus to others when you return."

Travel Recommendations for Destinations Around the World

Level 3: COVID-19 Risk Is High - Mexico

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 10:16 am, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

Did a bit more on the Aviation Public Health Initiative (APHI)

They did two prior reports, Face Mask Use in Air Travel and
Air Cabin Cleaning and Disinfection, both heavily referenced.
Links to the pdf's are on this page.

On the page with the videos I linked to there is a PDF titled
HSPH APHI Phase One Report. That is an impressive collection of
information!

On section 3.1.3 Viral Load - is this (edits mine)

Viral loads vary over the course of the disease, tending to peak
at or just before the onset of symptoms...and becoming undetectable
about two weeks after onset of symptoms for severely/critically
ill and immunosuppressed patients ...

It is likely that for those with less severe disease, infectivity
decreases more rapidly and to near-zero after 10 days ... there is
no definitive data on whether viral load is lower in asymptomatic
compared to symptomatic individuals; however, several studies
conclude that asymptomatic carriers could have viral loads comparable
to those of symptomatic carriers ...

It has been estimated that approximately 40-45% of SARS-CoV-2 infections
are asymptomatic ... A major limitation is that detection by viral
RNA does not correlate with viable or infectious virus, presumed to
be some fraction of total RNA in the samples. Culture of viral
samples on tissue culture is presumed to correlate better with infectivity.

I read that as we are ####ed

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Judith Boel on November 11, 2020, 1:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

This site gives weekly updates of COVID infected flights on West Jet, for those of you that might be interested.

https://blog.westjet.com/operational-updates-coronavirus-covid-

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Covid toes

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 3:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

I was reading section 2.3.3 Symptoms of COVID (PDF) and at the bottom of the
list was covid toes. I had never heard of that so I did a search and
found photos of exactly what I have had (and still have a bit) for
quite some time now! Shock!

In the past I had big time shortness of breath (which I wrote
off to my smoking), headaches (I was eating 6 aspirin a day)
and fatigue (which I attributed to my lack of exercise). All
of those are gone now, still a little fatigue.

I went and had the antibody test about a month ago and got a negative,
but I am now quite sure I had a significant case of COVID.

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Re: Covid toes and rant

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Covid toes"

There was also discoloration on the top f my foot, I was concerned
enough to eventually go to the clinic and show it to the doctor.
He said if I had it on both feet it would mean heart disease but
since it was only on one foot not to worry about it. He gave me some
antibiotics and some other medicine neither of which I took any of.

- Start rant -

TLDR - This too shall probably not pass.

Yesterday I stubbed my toe while walking around my property, I noticed
blood on my toe but never even took the time to look at it much less
treat it in anyway. I have been like that all my life i.e. ignore it
and it will go away.

Both my parents are from Tennessee so I probably have some hick in
my DNA. If you were to look me up in the psychological book
I would be diagnosed with "ain't right, never has been never will be syndrome".

Our tendency to not learn from the past, not prepare for emergencies
and to assume all will be well is a global phenomenon.

In the movie the Matrix the agent Smith has Morpheus captive.
The agent is looking out the window at the matrix (computer simulation
of the world) and says "Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled
at it's beauty, it's genius? Billions of people just living out their
lives, oblivious".

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human
world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a
disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost.
Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe
your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings
define their reality through misery and suffering".

If I were from another planet and visited earth and saw the way
we live I would shake my head and say - pitiful.

- Close rant -

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Re: Covid toes and rant

Posted by bill on November 11, 2020, 7:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid toes and rant"

Ya, but how is your toe?

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Re: Covid toes and rant

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 7:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid toes and rant"

That would be toes plural and thanks for asking.

They seem to be fine and I have come to assume that they are a sign
of covid and not some problem in and of themselves (but I have not
researched that).

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Re: Covid toes and rant

Posted by Daniel H on November 11, 2020, 8:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid toes and rant"

You mean the one I stubbed? Its a bit sensitive when I put on a pair
of jeans, but I am sure it will be fine all on its own. Unless turning
70 has some effect that has not previously been present.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

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Re: Covid toes and rant

Posted by bill on November 11, 2020, 9:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Covid toes and rant"

Hard to deny a stubbed toe.
And being over 70 happens to those of us lucky enough to live that long.

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Sherri on November 12, 2020, 12:04 am, in reply to "Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

5 more flights added today by the Canadian gov't of covid exposure from international flights.

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Geoff on November 12, 2020, 12:11 am, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

I’m not understanding what you are saying.

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Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'

Posted by Kieran on November 12, 2020, 1:07 am, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"
Edited by board administrator November 12, 2020, 9:48 am

For gods sakes ,wear shoes. This convo is getting... ? Gross

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Re: Covid toes

Posted by Daniel H on November 12, 2020, 2:01 am, in reply to "Re: Covid transmission on flights ‘extremely rare'"

Your post was removed Kieran but I did some checking and yes, covid toes
could come from not wearing shoes and being inactive, both of
which apply to me.

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-toes

We keeps on a learnin

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Re: Covid toes

Posted by Valerie D on November 12, 2020, 7:59 am, in reply to "Re: Covid toes"

I’m seeing a LOT of posts lately that go completely off topic!

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Re: off topic

Posted by Daniel H on November 12, 2020, 8:11 am, in reply to "Re: Covid toes"
Edited by board administrator November 12, 2020, 8:41 am

I can see why you would say that.

Covid toes comes from the Aviation Public Health Initiative report,
same one that said it was safe to fly. Covid toes does not list the source and is
one of the first possible errors in what seems to be a very in-depth credible
report.......so far .... (I have found no peer review).

With the exception of that "safe as the grocery store" public relations click
bait crap, which I am positive came from the corporations who paid for the report
and not the academics.

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Re: off topic

Posted by Daniel H on November 12, 2020, 11:57 am, in reply to "Re: off topic"

I will go further and say that it was getting the media to repeat
the "safe as the grocery store" headline (to improve public relations)
was the reason the study was done to begin with. I would guess that
it was made clear beforehand to those who put their names on the report
that they agree to back that statement.
There are numerous words and carefully worded sentences in
that report that relieve them of being held legally liable.

As in the Fredrich Miskin / Iceland example I gave above what if
it turns out that the risk of flying is much higher than what is
being promoted? All they are going to do is say "oops, sorry
we killed (or got very sick) you / your family member / friend"

There is only one way actually know how safe it is to fly and
that is testing and tracking, all the rest is conjecture.

Just be aware that the corporations spent a lot of money on this,
they know most people won't read past the headline and will swallow
it hook, line and sinker because they want to believe it, and
don't think about the possibility that it could end up being quite
wide of the truth.

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Back on topic

Posted by Valerie D on November 12, 2020, 2:15 pm, in reply to "Re: off topic"

IMHO

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Flight safety

Posted by Neal on November 12, 2020, 6:08 pm, in reply to "Re: off topic"

https://www.vox.com/21525068/covid-19-airplane-risk-coronavirus-pandemic-airports
Not sure if this has already been referenced but I found it a good overview

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Re: Flight safety

Posted by bob atkinson on November 12, 2020, 9:54 pm, in reply to "Flight safety "

What's concerning to me is that soon after takeoff on Alaska Air the flight crew announce that it is okay to take off your mask to eat so being good Americans people eat all the way to Seattle from Anchorage. Heading from Anchorage to Tucson next Thursday and it will be mask on from the time I leave the car until leaving the Tucson terminal. And then we get tested at the terminal when arriving back in Anchorage. Having a massive outbreak up here as well as across the USA because people just couldn't bring themselves to do the simple damn mask wearing and distancing in public.

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Re: Flight safety

Posted by Rick on November 13, 2020, 10:08 am, in reply to "Flight safety "

IATA doesn't work for just one airline with a vested interest... but as far as the airplane is concerned this bit of research is mostly reassuring.

https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/pr/2020-09-08-012/

... it's really not the airplane, it's at the airports where the risk likely rises. Arriving at the departure airport, then going through 'security' while they eagerly root through your bag looking for that bottle of shampoo that might be just a tiny bit too large. Deplaning, and then lining up where social distancing might be more difficult. You often waiting half an hour or more for the customs and immigration clearance process at arrivals in a who knows how well ventilated a room full of people.... that's where I would be more concerned about the possibility of infectious COVID pathogens floating around in the air.

Here in Mexico, and leaving security, you likely still have to make your way through the 'shark pit', full of shouting timeshare salesmen... (they call it fractional ownership now... how nicely sanitized the same old is.) and then come the $$$ taxi sales pitches trying to grab your attention before you leave the exit doors.... so no, the system here is not about protecting you from COVID.

I wouldn't blame the airplanes, it's the arrival and departure airports that are of more of a concern

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Re: Flight safety

Posted by Neal on November 13, 2020, 12:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Flight safety "

And then there is the bus from PV

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