La Manzanilla message board

Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Kathleen on February 3, 2021, 9:37 am The other post is getting really long so I am starting a new one. What all the discussions on this board are missing is the inequity of the regulation. It is targeted at Canadian snowbirds in Mexico and the Caribbean. 1. Few transmissions are from travellers compared to community transmission. 2. Are people in Canada being forced to pay for 2 PCR tests whether or not they may have been exposed to Covid. No. 3. Are people in Canada being forced to quarantine in a quarantine hotel for 3 days at their own expense to await results after testing? No, they quarantine in their own homes. Something which we are also capable of doing. 4. Are flights to South Africa, Britain and Brazil cancelled? That's where the identified mutations are. And the answer is no. (see point 1) 5. Are flights to the USA cancelled because those 3 mutations have all been identified in the US. No they are not. 6. Are flights within Canada cancelled or are domestic travellers being forced to take 2 PCR tests at their own expense and then quarantine for $2000 at their own expense for 3 days. 7. We travelled here when international travel was being discouraged, not banned. The government of Canada is now treating us as though we circumvented or disobeyed some law. We didn't, the government just changed the rules mid-game. 8. Lastly, and the real point, this is transparently an attempt to obfuscate and deflect from the pitifully slow vacination roll-out in Canada. A few days ago we had done less than 1 million shots. In the same time frame the US has done 35 million which is about the population of Canada. It's a page out of Trump's playbook. If you have done something wrong, or not done something you should have, find a scapegoat to blame. And my fellow Canadian retirees in Mexico, that's us. Canadians returning from Mexico are less likely to be infected than the waiter at your favourite Canadian restaurant and are just as capable of quarantining in their homes. The $2000 pricetag is a political move by Trudeau to deflect blame onto travelling retirees, pure and simple. I am also sure that there are many more unidentified mutations out there which have already spread around the world. The horse has escaped folks, closing the barn door ain't going to work. Vaccines, N95 masks, social distancing and hand washing. That's what is going to work. The rest is politics. Please write to your MP and the prime minister pm@pm.gc.ca and let them know you see what is going on. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by david dagoli on February 3, 2021, 10:18 am, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" The new quarantine applies to all international arrivals. The cancellations are aimed at Spring Break vacationers, not retirees. Non-essential travel during a pandemic is a luxury. What should taxpayers foot the bill for this? If we could go back in time and stop the virus from taking hold in Canada, wouldn’t we do it? This is the same moment in time for the even more dangerous mutations. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by luca on February 3, 2021, 4:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" whom ever you are kathleen...the canadian government is addressing an issue regarding a problem that is part of this world... america has 400 plus thousand deaths.... europe is addressing this issue and trying to understand its complexity....be grateful for the canadian government attempting to get a grip.... This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Daniel H on February 3, 2021, 10:40 am, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" I did a Duck Duck search using - Canadians against quarantine https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Canadians+against+quarantine&t=h_&ia=web I see a couple of facialbook links to a group called Canadians Against Excessive Quarantine My mommy won't let me do Facialbook so that's all I have to say about that. https://www.facebook.com/CanadiansSayNoToMassHysteria/posts/230689498618476 This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Kathleen on February 3, 2021, 1:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" David: I'm afraid you misread, skipped over and/or misinterpreted everything I said. If I was not clear I apologize but I would appreciate it if you would read it more carefully and evaluate the points one by one instead of contradicting things I did not say. By the by, spring break in Canada is pretty much 2 weeks in March, while the flight moratorium is 2 months and again, it does not include Florida or South Carolina or anywhere warm in the states where students flock on Spring Break. I reiterate, this is aimed primarily at retirees. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by david dagoli on February 3, 2021, 2:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Jim T on February 3, 2021, 11:06 am, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Sorry, I will not be contacting my local MP or the Prime Minister's office to complain about the recent increase in the quarantine / testing requirements for returning international travelers. Yes, as Canadians we were discouraged from traveling internationally. There was no guarantee that restrictions or requirements for our return would not be implemented. Additionally, as distasteful as it might be, there might be further and more expensive restrictions in the future. My daughter is currently studying in Germany. If she were to leave the country, she would not be allowed re-entry for six months. And, there is no guarantee what the restrictions / requirements would be at that time. Perhaps you are not aware that on Dec 8, 2020 Donald Trump signed an Executive Order which prohibited companies involved in the manufacturing / supply of Covid vaccines in the US from shipping outside the country before US citizens had been vaccinated. That is why Canada and Mexico are sourcing the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines from Europe. We, in Toronto, are effectively in full lockdown right now. No restaurants, no stores open -- curbside pickup only except for grocery & drug stores, schools closed, very limited personal interaction, masks required, temperatures below freezing, and 4 inches of snow. I'd rather be in La Manz. This message is locked.

No objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Norma on February 3, 2021, 11:54 am, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Where I live in BC we have had no covid cases, so we feel pretty safe and are staying home except to pick up food, buildiing supplies, etc. Limited people in stores. Masks always everywhere. We are in our small bubbles with family and a friend or 2. If I can do this to keep others safe, I am okay with that. First time in 35 years I haven't come to Mexico, but I feel the planes are the vectors of transmission and that is why you need to be retested in Canada and quarantined. I can't imagine getting on a plane anywhere in the past year even to see my elderly relatives in Canada. The asymptomatic things frightens me as I would hate to pick something up en route and infect our loved ones in Mexico and at home. I foresaw that after last year it was super difficult for friends to return to Canada with dogs, so I knew as a poor person it was out of my league. If I had travelled, I couldn't feign ignorance of this pandemic. I would accept the government quarantine rule as it was pretty obvious what was coming and we were warned not to travel. It is the price you have to pay. I am thankful that we have Prime Minister Trudeau who takes this seriously. Good Luck Everyone. This message is locked.

Re: No objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Kathleen on February 3, 2021, 2:16 pm, in reply to "No objection to new Canadian travel rules" Hi Norma: I am glad you are surviving the winter safely in Canada. But that was amazingly prescient of you to know that if we travelled we would be forced to quarantine in gulag hotels at our own expense if we were even able to make it back to Canada after the government forced cancellations of our flights home. Next time share your ESP with the rest of us. This message is locked.

Re: No objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Norma on February 3, 2021, 2:36 pm, in reply to "Re: No objection to new Canadian travel rules" After last year's difficulty for folks with dogs returning home, I chose to not travel during a pandemic with 3 dogs. A close family member had cancer (he has recovered) as well as my best friend dying, so I needed to to be home. Then as covid spread there was the government warning not to travel. People spent thousands of dollars getting home last year without a quarantine, so I knew wasn't for me! And if I was to get sick, I would rather be home in Canada not causing a burden in Mexico. I can understand those who decided to go are now feeling angry about the government wanting to recoup money for those who will be costing the government money. I would suggest that folks who risked coming to Mexico might take the same risk and not quarantine well at home. I heed the example of New Zealand. If I was there I would probably stay, so best of luck to you, Kathleen. Travelling in the Time of Pandemic is a gamble, in my opinion. My dad died at 33 years of polio in 1960, so I take this seriously. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to whining Posted by Monte M on February 3, 2021, 12:24 pm, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" "4. Are flights to South Africa, Britain and Brazil cancelled? That's where the identified mutations are. And the answer is no. (see point 1)" I reiterate, https://members5.boardhost.com/lamanzanilla/msg/1610376731.html https://members5.boardhost.com/lamanzanilla/msg/1608574868.html https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/coronavirus/mexican-variant-mutation-of-coronavirus-under-study-in-jalisco/ We have enough variants here that we need not point fingers at other countries. They do not even know all of the variants and they won't because variants are not usually stable, that is because they vary, they mutate. This message is locked.

Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by sherri on February 3, 2021, 12:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to whining" It is a bizarre theory to think that the Canadian Government is plotting against retirees with limited means. For God's sake....people all over the world were advised not to travel. To not expect repercussions and difficulty from your decision to do so is, to put it politely, naive. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Daniel H on February 3, 2021, 12:27 pm, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" You bring up lots of good points Kathleen but I would like to focus on hotel quarantine. It was very interesting to watch my opinion morph toward acceptance of hotel quarantine after reading up on what is happening in Australia. Landing in Canada and no longer being free is a huge shift from quarantine at home. No longer free rings through my brain like a train horn, loud and impossible to ignore. While my opinion on quarantine is changing my opinion that such a measure should not be imposed upon someone who did not agree to that condition (because it did not exist) before leaving is stronger than ever. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Larry F on February 3, 2021, 1:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" "Landing in Canada and no longer being free"? Now there's a statement that brings up train horns. Is it not somewhat naive to think that anyone is "free" in this world. Any rule imposes a restriction on a person's ability to do whatever they wish. Society is filled with them. It is somewhat ridiculous to think that a person needs to "agree to a condition" before they would be required to abide by it. In our society we are free to object to rules we are forced to follow. But we don't get to ignore the rule. A majority of Canadians agree with the current travel restrictions. The rule on hotel quarantines imposes a rule on a a very small part of the population that has the effect of protecting a very large majority of people. The fact that the rule did not exist before is a bogus argument. The new Covid variants have now come into Canada, as in most other places. Those mutant viruses did not come from South Africa or wherever by car, boat or horseback. They came by air. This has to stop. I think that most foreigners in Mexico agree with that in spite of the expense and inconvenience of it. To them, I say thank you for helping to keep us all safe. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by charley on February 3, 2021, 1:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" as Jim T . said: "Yes, as Canadians we were discouraged from traveling internationally. There was no guarantee that restrictions or requirements for our return would not be implemented. Additionally, as distasteful as it might be, there might be further and more expensive restrictions in the future." This is one of the reasons why Bonnie and I decided in July 2020 not to come to our cherished La manzanilla . The virus is evolving daily, and the measures applied to fight the virus and now its variants, change daily. Daniel, you commented: "While my opinion on quarantine is changing my opinion that such a measure should not be imposed upon someone who did not agree to that condition (because it did not exist) before leaving is stronger than ever." I do not understand it completely: 1)too many double negatives.... 2)Canadians were forewarned and that was a personal choice to travel to mexico without knowing the measures imposed for their return. Some Canadian travellers will abide with the new measures, some will contest them, some will not return for awhile or ever. Another personal choice. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Kathleen on February 3, 2021, 2:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Thank you for actually examining my post Daniel. It is apparent from the responses that others did not. They seem to have an idee fixe which prevents them from examining new ideas and just trundle on by new information to their entrenched opinions. I also probably overwhelmed readers with the number of points I enumerated. Taking it more slowly - is it equitable (fair) that international travellers who have homes in Canada should have to quarantine in hotels at their own expense when domestic travellers can quarantine in their own homes (particularly when most spread is community rather than travel related). I guess domestic travellers are more trustworthy. There I go again with several points at once, sorry. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by RuthC on February 3, 2021, 2:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Hmmm... gives me pause to wonder who is truly exhibiting idea fixe. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Daniel H on February 3, 2021, 3:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Communication is an art. IMO others are allowed their opinion and the temptation to put them into a group, shame them, criticize a personal characteristic or try to make them agree with our position should ideally be avoided. If we were to look for overall similarities as opposed to looking for specific differences the similarities would easily win. More and more in my conversations (more online than this message board) the criteria is citations, giving a source for something stated as fact or clearly labeling it IMO (in my opinion). This too is the art of communication and a valid thing to request. Along with that is recognizing when a important fact does not have a citation and is not labeled as an opinion giving it the level of response it is asking for i.e. requesting a citation or not responding. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by RuthC on February 3, 2021, 4:02 pm, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Even more restrictions likely on the way based on discussions between US and Canadian governments. Sharing this Feb 01, 2021 5:43 PM ET article from CBC: Canada mulls new travel restrictions to close land border loophole: Transport minister | CBC Radio The Canadian government is considering new travel restrictions to stop people whose sun destination flights were cancelled from crossing the U.S. land border. http://cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.5896324/canada-mulls-new-travel-restrictions-to-close-land-border-loophole-transport-minister-1.5896345 This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by david dagoli on February 3, 2021, 4:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" https://nationalpost.com/news/dont-like-canadas-new-mandatory-quarantine-its-part-of-why-new-zealand-is-now-back-to-normal This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Beccistarr on February 3, 2021, 7:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" One step above the sublime, makes the ridiculous; and one step above the ridiculous, makes the sublime again. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Daniel H on February 3, 2021, 7:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" I'll have what she's smoking hint This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Vicki M on February 3, 2021, 8:38 pm, in reply to "Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Kathleen, If you do not understand that it is not safe to travel during a pandemic, you have no one to blame but yourself. Many of us decided to go nowhere and mask up whenever we must go out for supplies. You apparently decided you did not want to stay whereever you were. So please stop whining when the rules change. Or at least forgive the rest of us for not giving a shit. The sane among us are locked down until people get a grip. And you, Kathleen, have not helped. You have demonstrated that you are willing to spread the virus and your ignorance. I am not willing to give you a break for the havoc and stupidity you are willing to spread. I want to be free again. Meanwhile, COVID idiots like you are keeping me from being free. Wear a damn mask at least and keep you distance from everyone. This situation ain't rocket science, far cryin' out loud. BUT, we definitely need higher intelligence than has been demonstrated heretofore. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Pablo on February 3, 2021, 9:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" "8. Lastly, and the real point, this is transparently an attempt to obfuscate and deflect from the pitifully slow vacination roll-out in Canada." The real point Kathleen? Give me a break!! The new flight restrictions have absolutely zero to do with the speed of the vaccinations. That's just pure politically-motivated fantasy. And as if this topic would be so dominant in the news that we wouldn't have the capacity to think of the vaccine progress anymore. Piffle!! And like Norma and many others, I'm also happy to have the prime minister we do. As for the slower than hoped rollout of the vaccine, it seems it's because Canada has recently been shorted on the expected vaccine supply, not because of any perceived incompetence. Maybe we should send the troops to Belgium and storm their capitol and demand that they ignore their own people and give us what we need first. Big Thumbs up to your comments, Mr. Dagoli and Larry F. - so reasoned and measured with your responses as usual. This message is locked.

Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules Posted by Moderator on February 3, 2021, 9:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Strong objection to new Canadian travel rules" Not to pick on you Pablo but I am beginning to think it is this kind of I'm for this side and not for this side kind of post that is going to be moderated quite soon. It's not news its just one opinion against the other and doesn't belong on this message board. So posters beware, if your post disappears its been moderated. I don't want to step onto the slippery slope of censorship as I loose either way, but something has to get this board back to being about La Manzanilla and Mexico. And with that I shall lock this B movie thread. Edit - I abhor censorship and doubt I will have to do it, but if I do I will not just disappear a post, I would replace the contents with the words "this post has been moderated" or something to that effect. Let's just hope it never gets to that point. Thank you. This message is locked.

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